Donbass: Tanks on the move

Reports on current military activity
Encyclopath
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:15 pm

The conventional forces required to defend Kiev against a concerted Russian attempt to overrun it would represent an enormous escalation. If Putin make a push for Kiev, then we have all already lost. It would be wiser to reinforce the borders of donbass, and give them those goddamn javelins

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Harbinger
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:39 pm

The Ukraine overthrow and Syria overthrow depended on Russia not challenging the western powers on their actions.

The west can have Syria, if it starts and wins WW3 with Russia.

The west can keep Ukraine, if it starts and wins WW3 with Russia.

Short of WW3, Russia will win both nations, at great cost. The west will lose less because we are using others to do our work, but losses must be counted in more than men and materiel. These fights have cost the west dearly in the hearts and minds of their own people. Many are those now that see through the lies and deceit. An army can be rebuilt, confidence and belief in your nation's leaders, values, and goodness on the other hand...
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steve5304
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:21 pm

TruthandJustice wrote:Ukraine is where Obama needs to draw the line in my opinion. It is too late for Syria. Since Russia likes to use the fact that they were "asked" to assist in Syria by the illegitimate dictatorship, then the US should use the same excuse in Ukraine. Ukraine has asked for our assistance and we should start fortifying Kiev and western Ukraine before it is too late.

You and your kids first.

I have no interest in my country getting into another stupid war when we are 20 trillion in debt.


If someone wants to buy some old tows and Patton tanks ok by me. But boots on the ground no way

Encyclopath
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:33 pm

Harbinger wrote:The Ukraine overthrow and Syria overthrow depended on Russia not challenging the western powers on their actions.

The west can have Syria, if it starts and wins WW3 with Russia.

The west can keep Ukraine, if it starts and wins WW3 with Russia.

...
Just for the record, Russia's intention is to take control of Ukraine, and you feel that is within their right to do so. Please let me know what I'm incorrect about here.

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Fox One
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:34 pm

I don't have any interest in my country getting into a war with anyone, stupid or otherwise, even if we had zero debt. But sometimes in life you have to make a stand whether you like it or not. If the west sits idly by and allows Russia to take Ukraine by force of arms, then you can bet it won't stop there. And chances are good that their next land grab would be a NATO member nation. It would be better to stop this now in Ukraine than to allow it to go unchecked.

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Harbinger
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Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:55 pm

Encyclopath wrote:Just for the record, Russia's intention is to take control of Ukraine, and you feel that is within their right to do so. Please let me know what I'm incorrect about here.
Let me fix that for you: "Russia's intention is to retake control of Ukraine," a subtle difference that makes all the difference.
Just for the record, America's intention is to take control of Ukraine, and you feel that is within their right to do so. Please let me know what I'm incorrect about here.
Fox One wrote:I don't have any interest in my country getting into a war with anyone, stupid or otherwise, even if we had zero debt. But sometimes in life you have to make a stand whether you like it or not. If the west sits idly by and allows Russia to take Ukraine by force of arms, then you can bet it won't stop there. And chances are good that their next land grab would be a NATO member nation. It would be better to stop this now in Ukraine than to allow it to go unchecked.
If Russia stands by and lets America and NATO take the Ukraine by force of hybrid war, you can bet it wont stop there. Chances are good their next land grab would be Belarus or another former Warsaw Pact nation (if any are left and not yet in NATO), or god forbid Russia herself. It would be better to stop this now in Ukraine than to allow it to go unchecked.

It is generally considered gentlemanly if the provocateur is the first to concede, and backs down from the fight. The alternative is far worse than losing.

Guys: My intent is not to be an ass, but it really feels like there's a real problem seeing the Russian point of view. Nothing good can come from it.
Last edited by Harbinger on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jjjppp11
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Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:00 am

I have monitored this conflict now for nearly three years. Ceasefire violations are at an all time low. I honestly see no escalation on the horizon. This has sadly become nothing more than a post-soviet conflict zone. Donbas has joined the ranks of Transnistria, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia. It is sadly true. None the less, certainly a flashpoint we should monitor closely.
"Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam circumspice"

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Fox One
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Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:03 am

Except the U.S. and NATO aren't trying to take Ukraine by force of anything. Ukraine is a free and sovereign nation that has the ability to choose whoever they wish to align with, be it the west or Moscow. Just because Russia doesn't like that doesn't give them a right to do what they are doing there. There is no justification for their actions.

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Harbinger
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Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:10 am

Fox One wrote:There is no justification for their actions.
Actually, you just gave them one...
Fox One wrote:Ukraine is a free and sovereign nation that has the ability to choose whoever they wish to align with, be it the west or Moscow.
I suppose the people of Donbass and Crimea are excluded from "the ability to choose whoever they wish to align with, be it the west or Moscow."

There is always more than our side to any argument.
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Fox One
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Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:19 am

I suppose the people of Donbass and Crimea are excluded from "the ability to choose whoever they wish to align with, be it the west or Moscow.
Well, using the methods they are using, yes, I would say that does exclude them. If Latinos suddenly claimed southern California and the Mexican military was sent in to to help seize and hold that area for Mexico, that wouldn't be a legal action. If people in the Donbass and Crimea want to be a part of Russia so badly, then they should just move a bit east and make their wish come true, legally I might add.
There is always more than our side to any argument.
Of course there is. But just because there are more than one side to an argument doesn't mean they are both equally valid.

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