Venezuela?

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Re: Venezuela?

by Obreid » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:07 pm

Tyrants can dominate and destroy a nation and people at very little capital outlay, bullies and bullets are cheap.

Their only real cost is human life and freedom.

Removing them has proven much more expensive for everyone.

I have always believed that IF we as a nation are going to engage in nation building we have to be very careful we choose a culture that we can effectively develop some form of representative gov.
We have not had a good trak record with this but there are some successes.

Second if we choose to do it then there has to be solid support to do so and then go all in with overwhelming power and effect.
Overwhelming and quick is fewer casualties in the long run.

But honestly -,politically and socially we are light years away as a nation to support this therefor I hope we stay out of it militarily.

Re: Venezuela?

by DEFCONWarningSystem » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:45 am

Garniv wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:30 am
DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:27 am
Garniv wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm
The alternatives are: discussion, negotiations. Better talks for months, rather than invasion for weeks.
At what point do you say talks don't work. And how long are the people of Venezuela to wait until you come to that point?
Have US even tried talks? Nope... Then how did we know talks won't work?
But they did. An offer was made to provide escape. I believe another offer was made to allow him a side role in some new government. (Don't quote me on that one, though.)

But okay. Talk. What talk do you foresee that would make things better?

Re: Venezuela?

by krzepice1976 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:46 pm

President Nicolas Maduro is funneling cashflow from Venezuelan oil sales through Russian state energy giant Rosneft as he seeks to evade U.S. sanctions designed to oust him from power, according to sources and documents reviewed by Reuters.

Under the scheme uncovered by Reuters, Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA has started passing invoices from its oil sales to Rosneft.

The Russian energy giant pays PDVSA immediately at a discount to the sale price – avoiding the usual 30-to-90 day timeframe for completing oil transactions – and collects the full amount later from the buyer, according to the documents and sources.

Major energy companies such as India's Reliance Industries Ltd - PDVSA's largest cash-paying client - have been asked to participate in the scheme by paying Rosneft for Venezuelan oil, the documents show.


https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/ ... ssion=true

Re: Venezuela?

by Garniv » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:30 am

DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:27 am
Garniv wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm
The alternatives are: discussion, negotiations. Better talks for months, rather than invasion for weeks.
At what point do you say talks don't work. And how long are the people of Venezuela to wait until you come to that point?
Have US even tried talks? Nope... Then how did we know talks won't work?
But what US does:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-government-resign-elliot-abrams-trump-a8781131.html wrote:Amid the mounting pressure at home and abroad, Mr Maduro said he won’t give up power as a way to defuse the standoff. He also reiterated a refusal to allow humanitarian aid, calling boxes of US-donated food and pediatric supplies sitting in a warehouse on the border in Colombia mere “crumbs” after the US administration froze billions of dollars in the nation’s oil revenue and overseas assets.
US again provoke more crysis. Lives of the people of Venezuela is nothing for US, compared to desire replace regime to loyal. Lives of the people of Venezuela are only tools to achieve political goals.

Re: Venezuela?

by Obreid » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:01 am

DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:27 am
Garniv wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm
DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:20 pm
Of course. Maduro has insulated himself. The problem is, there isn't really anything anyone can do that won't affect the population as a whole. So the alternative is to do what? Nothing?
It's harsh, but even an invasion will affect the population. What the US is doing is the lesser of two evils.
Maybe an invasion would be a good thing. Get it over with fast.
The alternatives are: discussion, negotiations. Better talks for months, rather than invasion for weeks.
At what point do you say talks don't work. And how long are the people of Venezuela to wait until you come to that point?
When they all drop another ten pounds.

Their are sometimes horrible things that happen in the internal boarders of a nation. Where civil war turns genocidal or the controlling government is abusive beyond international norms.

At this point I don’t see the wisdom of any direct US military involment, nor can I personally foresee one.
There are covert means of support that we could provide directly to the Venezuelan people, we probably already are.

Economic constrictions of Maduro’s gov and massive rebellion of the people are only thing that will force them out. One is direct action by us, the other is indirect.

This one thing has to be remembered as we ramp up this cource we have to commit to it till it’s done.
That has been our prime mistake since Vietnam Nam, possibly even Korea.

Imagine if Truman had let MacCarthur prosecute the war the way he wanted. We would not be dealing with Kim today and the entire Korean Peninsula would refect South Korea.

Re: Venezuela?

by DEFCONWarningSystem » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:27 am

Garniv wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm
DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:20 pm
Of course. Maduro has insulated himself. The problem is, there isn't really anything anyone can do that won't affect the population as a whole. So the alternative is to do what? Nothing?
It's harsh, but even an invasion will affect the population. What the US is doing is the lesser of two evils.
Maybe an invasion would be a good thing. Get it over with fast.
The alternatives are: discussion, negotiations. Better talks for months, rather than invasion for weeks.
At what point do you say talks don't work. And how long are the people of Venezuela to wait until you come to that point?

Re: Venezuela?

by Garniv » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm

DEFCONWarningSystem wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:20 pm
Of course. Maduro has insulated himself. The problem is, there isn't really anything anyone can do that won't affect the population as a whole. So the alternative is to do what? Nothing?
It's harsh, but even an invasion will affect the population. What the US is doing is the lesser of two evils.
Maybe an invasion would be a good thing. Get it over with fast.
The alternatives are: discussion, negotiations. Better talks for months, rather than invasion for weeks.

Re: Venezuela?

by DEFCONWarningSystem » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:20 pm

Garniv wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:15 am
krzepice1976 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 pm
The United States will use its economic tools to the maximum capacity to constrict Maduro and ensure that his cronies no longer pilfer what rightfully belongs to .
https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton/statu ... 36290?s=19
I think anyone understands that tools applied to the whole country will only make worse the lives of the ordinary people of Venezuela, not Maduro...
Of course. Maduro has insulated himself. The problem is, there isn't really anything anyone can do that won't affect the population as a whole. So the alternative is to do what? Nothing?

It's harsh, but even an invasion will affect the population. What the US is doing is the lesser of two evils.

Maybe an invasion would be a good thing. Get it over with fast.

Re: Venezuela?

by lcurle » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:07 am

DirtyDevil69 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:02 am
I smell Marines.
They wouldn't be the first wave in.

Re: Venezuela?

by Garniv » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:15 am

krzepice1976 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 pm
The United States will use its economic tools to the maximum capacity to constrict Maduro and ensure that his cronies no longer pilfer what rightfully belongs to .
https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton/statu ... 36290?s=19
I think anyone understands that tools applied to the whole country will only make worse the lives of the ordinary people of Venezuela, not Maduro...

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